Social Justice - A Conversation

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Wesley Knight 0:06
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Charles Stanton 0:18
Good evening. This is Professor Charles Stanton. I'm a professor of Boyd School of Law,

Blanca Pena 0:23
and my name is Blanca Pena. I am a third year law student at the Boyd School of

Charles Stanton 0:26
Law, and this is Social Justice a conversation,

Blanca Pena 0:29
a conversation.

Charles Stanton 0:33
Well, good evening, everybody, and welcome to our program. I'm here with my cohort and partner, Blanca Pena, which is always a pleasure, and I wanted to start the program off today talking a little bit about azaleta gravalva. Azaleta grivalba, as you probably know, is the daughter of the former congressperson in one of the congressional districts in Arizona, and as of tonight, we're going on three weeks since her election by the people who live in that district, and we are still waiting for her to be sworn in. And it really, to me, is a sad state of affairs when our political system almost seems to have collapsed, not merely, not merely in the sense of, you know, certain things that are authorized by law or stuff like that, but just like the decency, courtesy and respect that seems to have vanished, but But even more than that, basically leaving The people in that congressional district unnecessarily without a representative to take care of their needs for what will soon be going on a month. And I do not, I do not really understand how people could be so callous. But what I do understand is the practical mercenary necessities of people in the House of Representatives and in our Congress, trying to do everything humanly possible to prevent the Jeffrey Epstein files from being released and Madam grival is the 218th vote which will allow those records to be released, and it seems that everything is being done to prevent that. The truth that's of what's in them.

Blanca Pena 2:54
Yeah, I wish there was more outrage. They cannot be louder than they are now about how terrible they are. I think this reminds me a lot of the Supreme Court Justice appointments back when Obama was on his way out. And how was it? It was between three or nine months that's such a big window that I am remembering, but there was quite a few months left in his presidential term, and they would not allow him to appoint a justice because they thought that that would have been an overreach in his executive power, and he should not be able to appoint someone for like, a Lifetime term if he was on his way out right, and then Trump comes in, he appoints and then it had happened again, when Trump was on his way out and they allowed him to appoint a Supreme Court justice, and that's why we have all of these decisions that have come out since then. I mean, Dobbs is the first one that comes to mind. But you know, they're so loud about it. They are so open and proud, almost of everything that they are able to get away with, and they continue to do so. And it's really frustrating seeing the lack of rage against that. I was seeing the responses that I'm blanking on his last name, Mike is it? Mike Johnson? Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson. He was saying that the reason why she hasn't been appointed yet is due to the government shutdown, and like there was so many opportunities to appoint her way before the shutdown even happened, but they just didn't, because they don't want to risk having those Epstein files come out. It's just clear to me that there is something in there that is so egregious and heinous and it will just topple but at the same time, I'm almost thinking like they have done so. Many terrible things thus far, I I almost feel like they might even get away with what's in the Epstein files. Is that crazy of me to say,

Charles Stanton 5:11
well, let me, let me put it this way, the situation with the files is reflective of a deep seated lack of moral principle and a lack of caring about how the government should run the files themselves. And I don't know, you know, I don't think any, any person at this point knows exactly what's in there or what they would tell us, but we, we do know. We do know that this was a man who consorted with a large number of very wealthy, politically connected, highly influential people. We do know also that people traveled with him to his estate on numerous occasions, knowing full well what the environment was in those locations, no one, no one who has any moral probity would want to be anywhere near that. But unfortunately, the case seems to be otherwise. I think it's interesting at its at its most basic level. It is a test this whole situation with the files and all these documents and everything. It is a test of whether the idea that Justice for All is part of America is either true or it's its whole mythology. I think there may be no I think there may be in all of our history, no case that puts that question more bluntly and more boldly as this case, because if you think about this case and you remove it, you remove it from any other case, this is a Case of the most horrific crimes that could be committed against another human being, and the vast majority of the people who those crimes were committed against were people who were under the age so the magnitude of that crime would call for the most extensive investigation, the most extensive fact finding, and if through the rule of law, the conviction of people who were involved in This would also mandate the punishment of great severity. The idea that the powers that be who run the country were unaware of these crimes does not, does not hold water. Just the other day, the Wall Street Journal, and I must praise them, because they've been they've been exceptionally good on this. On the story, listed at least 20 banks that were involved in this trafficking network that Jeffrey Epstein had, and it went through all the different amounts of money and all the rest of the stuff, which really are in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. And they mentioned some of the people who had, who had made these huge payments to him that were not based really on any services performed by him in any, you know, either legal or practical way. But as we saw recently, as we saw recently, in a movie we did in our class, which was the verdict movie, the end of the movie ties into this, because in this movie, where justice is almost always thwarted by the powers that be and by the system itself. We have now the ultimate the ultimate question, the ultimate choice we have to make, if the evidence is brought out, if the evidence is. Revealed. Will the sub will the system of justice in 2025 all these 250 years after the founding of our country, will the system of justice demand justice? Will the people in the judiciary, will the people in the legal community, will the people in our executive branch, will the people in our judicial branch, will the people in our legislative branch stand up for that justice in the most powerful way, considering the alternative, which is not to demand justice and not to give justice, which would be not only saying there is no justice, but that horrific crimes like these are to be accepted. That is the ultimate question.

Blanca Pena 10:51
Yeah, and that's why I'm doubtful about that happening, because, I mean, we have a pretty general idea, even without the files being out of what occurred already, right, the airplane logs and the island and the estate and the accounts from the victims, like, if that's already not enough, if that already like the fact that this man is in office, the fact that he is in not in jail, the fact that he already has the 30 something felony convictions, and he's still a billionaire. He's still in power, he still has all of these things lined up for him. If that already wasn't enough, what makes us even think that the release of the fouls will do anything more like that's why I'm so doubtful about it, because we already know what's what's going to be in there. It'll probably get make things worse, sure. But will it invite justice? Well, will it motivate the right amount of people to make something happen? I just don't know anymore, because we've just seen the wrongs happen over and over and over again, whether it's on a smaller scale or on a bigger scale, it's like we've seen him appoint unqualified people. We've seen him say the most heinous things. People excuse it. People love him, and I will never understand why. I really cannot fathom the unquestionable loyalty that they have towards him. They're blindly led by everything that he says, no matter what. And I just don't have a lot of faith that when those if those files ever come out, that something big will happen. Because I feel like we keep thinking that something big will happen, and then it happens, and then it's like, oh, okay, well, he's still in power, no one's arresting him, all right, like the insurrection January 6. That was insane, right? To say the very least, that was crazy. You had the proud boys. You had like veterans. You had so many people at the Capitol setting things on fire, storming in, breaking things. You had representatives who were hiding in their offices all because the election didn't turn out the way that they wanted to. You had Trump tweeting, you know, inciting all of these riots that that should have been a turning point, right? Like that should have changed everything. But where are we right now? We're still here with this man in office, after everything that he did to this country. And it's like, when people reference it nowadays, it's almost like they minimize how bad it really was, like, even just with the protests that you know, people on the left do right about ice and things like that. And you have Republicans saying that the left is the is the party of, you know, rioting and and going crazy. And it's like, Well, did you forget? Like, like, where is this? You know, why are people being so forgetful about what just happened not that long ago.

Charles Stanton 14:02
I, I, this is what I would say on it, all points well considered as to what you said. I think, though, I think though this is different. He, He is the president of the United States, okay. But the scope and breadth of this scandal is way beyond him. I hope you're right. This is a world this is a worldwide phenomenon. Trafficking and abuse is a worldwide phenomenon. It's a worldwide phenomenon that is enormously lucrative. It's an enormously it's also a phenomenon where where major criminal organizations are putting enormous amounts of money into its growth. So the the papers that that hopefully will be revealed, and the evidence that hopefully will will be revealed, I think will show him I can't, I can't, only God can judge what he did. I don't. I can't judge this. I don't know, I don't know what the evidence is. But I think, I think what the what it will show, though, if everything is released as it should be a massive interaction of people in the positions of power in this country, in the entertainment community, in the legal community, in the financial community, that are part of this thing and that it would it would primarily cast cast blame and aspersion on an enormous number of people who were considered pillars of society, people who were supposedly above reproach. The question, though, is, though, part of the reason that we have the situation we have in our country is because there is among perhaps, probably the majority of people, the belief that justice has failed, that there really isn't, there really isn't true justice. And I'm not talking about just people who are in the minority community, the Hispanic community and the black community and a lot of other communities as well, that that justice, that justice has basically failed. They see all the things that are going on. People do what they're going to do. They get away with it. Nothing, nothing is ever a judge to be wrong the case. I mean, the perfect example is, is the woman who was the cohort of Jeffrey Epstein, and she gets to go down to, like a less strict place to serve at a time when doing something like that should have meant like hard time right from the beginning, you go away. You go away for life, basically for doing something like that. But there are a number of Republicans. There are a number of Republicans, and I must say, I must say this to be fair, Marjorie Taylor Greene has been one of them. But there are others besides Marjorie Taylor Greene who want, who want the truth to come out as to actually, as to actually what happened. Now the question is going to be, let's say that all this stuff is brought out as to what happened, and I'm sure, I'm sure that it would be horrific. The question is two questions, number one, who is going to do the prosecution of these people? Who's going to, who's going to legally, who's going to legally bring people to justice if it seems that the Justice Department now is not independent anymore, but let's, let's say there are people who will, will do the right thing. And I want to, I want to believe that. I want to believe that in a case like this, where there are crimes against children, that I'm sure there would be people who would would want to bring these charges. But the other question is, though, the other question is, which is equally important, though, if we don't do anything, are we basically validating and saying that these crimes, these horrific crimes of innocence, there's nothing we can do about it. And if we're saying that, then we're basically saying we're a society that stands for nothing, and it's it's got to be more. It's got to be more than just the Supreme Court. It's got to be more than just people who are in the Congress. It's got to be more even than people in the executive branch. It's got to be all of us. That's when you, when you, when you, when you take these things in, you say, Well, no, this is this is this is unacceptable, yeah, but I think, I think, and I think you would agree with me on this, that kind of thinking should, should have started a long, long time ago. I agree with you, the misogyny, all the stuff that was done to women, the abuse of children and everything. This is generations

Blanca Pena 19:44
old, even the way he treats his daughter like that, that should have raised the first red flag, but obviously it didn't. And I know you mentioned Marjorie Taylor green, you know, sure I can acknowledge that she's now speaking out about these things, but I honestly can. Not give her too much credit, because she played a big part in getting him elected, knowing all the things that he had already done by that point. So I'm just like she couldn't I couldn't care less honestly about her speaking up. She's not any better of a person just because she decided to do that. It's too late. Now, I think I'm maybe just a little more jaded than you are. I think you have a lot of a lot more faith than I do currently. But I just there's this, there's this rap song that came out, like, back when I was in high school in like, 2016 or something. But one of the lines says, when the money talks, what is there to say? And the reason why I bring this up is because it's like, I think of people like Maxwell, or like even, you know, other rich people like Jordan Belfort who had to face time, or Harvey Weinstein, like different kinds of famous, rich and powerful people who were under scrutiny, and when it came down to them, quote, unquote, facing the consequences, they never, really, truly did, you know, like they got put in institutions where they were actually pretty, you know, as better, like, if we're going to compare experiences in prison, they were on the higher end of that, You know. And meanwhile, you have people who are currently, for example, at CCDC, facing horrible conditions off of, you know, stealing groceries, yeah, cool and things like that, but because they don't have the same power and influence, I mean, that's kind of beggars can't be choosers, kind of thing. Like, they just take what they can get. And it's really frustrating, because, again, like, even if someone did prosecute them, I'm still, I hope this is not true, right? But I still just have a feeling that any consequences that come to them, they'll be able to kind of skirt that because of the fact that they have so many money, so much money. I hope that's not the truth, though. Like, I genuinely and truly hope that we as a society are better than that. And history has proven time and time again that we mess up bad, but we end up waking up some day, right? And I just hope that that day is soon, because it's getting it's getting worrisome. I'm not gonna lie, it's a little draining every single day, having to, for example, be a law student and then just see the laws get, kind of see the laws crumble right in front of my face. Yeah, yeah. I really hope something is done. And I mean, a part of me thinks we might have gone too far electing him a second time, even the first time, but here we are.

Charles Stanton 22:43
I think, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be a test for the country. That's what I think. I don't think, I don't think what you're saying reflects on you as being jaded. I think what you're saying is is very close to the truth about a lot of what's going on. But I do believe, though I do believe that it will, it will determine ultimately, where our country goes. I believe that this particular case will will be the essential test of our democracy and what we believe in and we have, I believe only two choices. We can either have the choice that we don't, we don't want to face it, we ignore it, we look the other way, or we say, we this is, this is not going to go on. We're going to we're going to stop it. And the society, the society will have to take, will have to take one of those positions. But not just, not just our society, vis a vis the average person, the court system, the legal system, the Congressional system, even the people who work for this man who's the president, they are going to have To decide what is the priority. Is the priority that the nation maintains some form of moral balance based on justice? Or are they going to say, well, there's nothing we can do, because that's the way people are and money is money, and all the rest of that stuff. I believe, I truly believe. You know a wise person one time said, a cynic, a person that's jaded is an idealist who wants to be proven wrong. Yeah, and it's out there right now. We have, we have the choice. We have the choice. The question is whether we as a society, Will. Will will meet the choice and say, Listen, we're going to do we're going to do certain things. I believe this is what I believe. This is my personal opinion. I believe if the truth comes out of what happened, there'll be a major shakeup in this country. There will be a major shakeup. There'll be a major shakeup in politics, primarily because of Citizens United and all the money that that decision allowed people to contribute to the campaigns. All that money, then is going to be brought into question as to exactly, you know, why was all this money thrown into certain people? I think they're going to start looking at people's finances in Congress. They're going to wonder how people who had a job paying 130 or $140,000 are leaving with 70 or $80 million I think it's, I think it's going to be a call to look at the whole thing, which is, which, of course, is years over. Do it should have been looked at a long time ago, agreed. And I think, I think hopefully, along with that, I think we need, like, a total re examination of our beliefs and our values, not merely, as you were saying about the case we've talked about, but our racial outlook, our treatment of women, everything should be on the table. Yeah, it's almost like we should start new. And I think that would be good.

Blanca Pena 26:25
Yeah. I mean, good. I agree with you that this will definitely be a test for the nation, one of many, though, I think recently, we've been failing a lot of them. Like, I it's, it's shocking how long we've let the conflict in Israel and Palestine go on for it's that's like, if people really, truly care about children, right? They would care about this issue. But I hate to say it, but I think it's true. I think the reason why they don't care is because, one, it's not happening to us. Two, they're brown. And that's kind of Yeah, that's kind of the thing. So, I mean, we'll see if they care a little bit more, because it did happen here, and it includes white children. Maybe that might, you know, perk up some ears. But, I mean, I don't know. It's, I don't know if you saw Greta Thunberg coming back and talking about everything that she endured, and I admire the way that she was handling everything, because she despite the fact that she went through unimaginable and unspeakable things, she still kept the spotlight on what was happening to Palestinians and those in Gaza, as opposed to what she had to go through because of the fact that she was there as An activist. And I think we need to take, like, notes, you know, I think there's a lot to say about people who go out and, you know, she's, she's the kind of person that she doesn't have to be doing all this, you know, like, I believe she was born into a pretty well environment, and if she wanted to, she could literally be doing anything else, and she is not. And I find that to be very, very admirable, and I think we can take some notes just on on what she's been doing and and use and employ those skills ourselves.

Charles Stanton 28:15
Yeah. Well, I'm going to close out with which is something from one of my all time favorite movies, which is on the waterfront, and how much I love that movie. And, of course, the wonderful portrayal of Eva Marie Saint, playing the the sister of the man who's been killed at the beginning of the movie. Yeah, and the father and everything is telling her, Evie, she says, You got to go back to the convent school. You can't, you can't stay here. This is not the right, you know, environment for you. And she looks at the Father, and she loves her father, and she says, Dad. She says, how after I've seen all these things, can I be expected to go back and not and not acknowledge what I saw? And that's and that's what it is,

Blanca Pena 29:01
yeah, we definitely need to acknowledge everything that's going on and not ignore we appreciate all of you for taking some time to listen to us, and we hope to see you again next week. Thank you.

Charles Stanton 29:12
Thank you and God bless you.

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