Social Justice - A Conversation

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Charles Stanton 0:18
Good evening. This is Professor Charles Stanton. I'm a professor of Boyd School of Law,

Blanca Pena 0:23
and my name is Blanca Pena. I am a third year law student at the Boyd School of

Charles Stanton 0:26
Law, and this is social justice, a conversation,

Blanca Pena 0:29
a conversation.

Charles Stanton 0:32
Well, good evening, everybody. Again, Professor Charles here with my with my partner, Blanca Pena, it's good to be back all with you on this Monday night as we try to dissect all the things that are going on in our country. Many concerning, most concerning, but a few things we wanted to, we wanted to throw out tonight, which I think are, I think are interesting. The one of the things that that's interesting to me, and this is, this is something that was a particular issue to me, was the report last Friday about the Catholic Church and how, after all the years of discovery, of all the abuse that went on in the Catholic Church, how very little progress has been made to, really, you know, bring this to a stop and to to help the survivors and and all of this stuff. And it was, it was really quite fascinating, because they had this article in the Times about, you know, the people who were part of this commission, and one of the Cardinals said that, you know, it's very disturbing that, after all the work that's been put into this, and you know, the urgency of the situation and everything, how there's just been almost like ignoring what happened to These, these children and young people. And I made the correlation, although it's in a different context to the Jeffrey Epstein case, actually, that we see a case where you have all these people who are harmed, their lives are upended. They have told their truth as to what happened, and the law and the system of justice and the moral authority that the government is supposed to possess is absent, and they're by themselves, trying to in some way reach some kind of peace As to the fact that the people who harm them deal with, deal with, with the system of justice as it should be. And, you know, I just, I just don't see that. I don't understand, I don't understand why there isn't more of an outrage about this and an outcry, because this is so wrong. But then I think to what happened in the church for all those years, where you had all these children who were victimized, even to the point, even to the point where in Latin America, where they had a man who was supposed to be a priest who was supposed to be counseling and guiding the victims, and he told the victims, basically, it wasn't a good idea to pursue these cases and to leave the priests

Blanca Pena 3:30
alone. Yeah, it's, you know, there needs to be a lot of some overhaul needs to happen. For sure, I think right now we're seeing that pattern a lot, where people are being told to silence themselves, to not speak wrongfully or speak ill on certain kinds of people because they're going to lose their jobs. And don't get all political because you're going to lose your job. And it's, I mean, I've seen it even throughout the university too. It's just people are telling us to cower down and not be noticed. But this is how authoritarians come into power. You silence everyone. You make everyone believe that if they stay quiet enough, that things will be fine at the end of the tunnel. And that's just not true. It's really sad to see people that I once thought were advocates or were willing to kind of put themselves out there for the greater good, are now choosing silence over the fight, yeah, and the thing with the Catholic Church, I mean, it's, it's really heartbreaking. I grew up Catholic my family, we're all Catholic as a girl, as a little girl, I would go to church every Sunday. I would be the altar server. I would read the Scripture sometimes, you know, I would help around, and I was really close with the priests that we had, and thankfully, you know, nothing negative ever happened to me. But I can't imagine how horrible it must be for all of those children and people who were ultimately victimized by an institution that was supposed to. Be there for guidance and for help and for peace and for love. I can't, I really can't imagine that. And as someone who is no longer Catholic, I think it's disappointing to see something that was supposed to be beautiful be so tainted by human error, by human behavior. It's just it's beyond me at this point, and I'm afraid we're just seeing pattern after pattern, and we're not really on a path to get any better, you know, it just seems to be repeating itself time and time again.

Charles Stanton 5:34
Yeah, well, I think there's, I think there's a couple of things there, you know, you were talking about in one of our discussions about principles, which I think is a very important thing, that people need to have certain basic rules of living, I think also that the justice system itself has failed. And when I say failed, I don't mean failed in the sense that a particular case failed where you know, somebody robbed a bank and they got away with it, or somebody was falsely imprisoned, what have you. But I mean just the idea that people could could go to the justice system with some with some belief that their quandary could be solved, that people would help them, that there would be some kind of support for for justice. And I when I, when I, when I think about it, I really think. I really think back to the to the verdict movie. Now, this is, this is 43 years ago, and he gives the speech, of course, and he talks about, you know justice, and you know that you're the justice, and you have the duty as a person to deliver justice. And then you see what's going on in the country, and you say to yourself, well, maybe we know why people don't believe in that anymore, because all the people who are supposedly in those positions that are supposed to uphold justice, they just checked out. I mean, it's just like, it's just like, what's going on with these indictments now? Yeah, I mean, there's a procedure that's supposed to be followed in the Justice Department, an investigatory procedure that's of a very strict nature, because when somebody is indicted in the federal by the federal government, it's a momentous thing, and you don't want to be you don't want to ensnare in that net people who basically are not, you know, have not really committed the kind of criminality that that calls for. And it's like a joke, though, like where somebody can make a phone call and say, Well, you know, you know, I want you to tomorrow. I want you to incite Jervis or something. And I said, Well, why are we inside? No, he's he's no good. We don't like him. We don't like her. And when people see that, it's more than just well, you you have the potential to ruin somebody's life by falsely indicting them or indicting them without evidence. But what also happens is people who observe that say, Wow, this is crazy. Like, you know, the they go before a grand jury, and the person who is going to charge the jury as the prosecutor has no experience in the criminal law, their experiences in insurance law, and you're getting an indictment against the person on felony charges. I mean, come on here, and and. And the thing is, you know what I don't understand either, is when President Nixon was the president, and he was using the Justice Department to for his own ends. But there were, there were, there were very few, if any, true indictments, and now we're seeing all these people being indicted, and the rationale for the indictment is, well, they were, they're an enemy of the administration. Well, yeah, they're an enemy of the administration. But it's not a crime to be to speak freely. It's not a crime to believe in things that other people don't believe in, that that, per se, is not a crime. So you know, you have to have some kind of a you have to have some kind of a legal standard if you don't have some kind of a legal stand, and then what's the law for?

Blanca Pena 9:29
Yeah, I totally agree. You remind me what you're talking about. You're reminding me a lot of I for one of my readings for my criminal procedure investigations class. We just read about map V Ohio and talking about the exclusionary rule, and how prior to map, we only applied the exclusionary rule on the federal level, right, and then it was map that instilled it into the states. But that opinion was so well written, I wish I could remember the justice that. Wrote that opinion. It was beautiful. It it essentially talked about, how you know if law enforcement, if the government, is able to bring about in a trial, to convict someone, evidence that was obtained through an unlawful or unreasonable search or seizure, then what is the fourth amendment for if you can't remedy anything that you know when they when they make those mistakes. If there's no remedy, then there's no incentive for law enforcement officers to follow that rule, because they're still going to be able to bring it in. And there were so many quotes in that opinion that essentially said, like, if you can't enforce this law, this law is meaningless, because who's going to respect it if there's no consequences? It's like a kid, right? If you tell a kid, hey, if you break my lamp, I'm not going to do anything. It's like, okay, well, he's going to break the lamp, and nothing's going to happen, and he's not going to care, and he's not going to learn, right? So it's just, I, I also think the the principles that we thought we once had in this country are overshadowed by levels and loads of hypocrisy. I don't know if you saw some, some dumb group chat came out of and it was just talking about how they love Nazis. It was people like, you know, it was, it was JD Vance's little friends and government people. And he comes out in a speech, and he says something like, you know, they're just kids, and they're they, they're just, they love dark humor. Mind you, these quote, unquote kids were 30 and 40 year olds, you know, like they actually weren't kids. And he got on that podium and with no shame, told us that it's okay for them to say that because freedom of speech, but just a few weeks ago, we couldn't say anything about Charlie Kirk, or else we were gonna lose everything that we've ever worked so hard for. So it's like it's so hypocritical that they think that they can, that they're above the law, that they can break it whenever they want. But it's like that saying rules for thee, but not for me. It's and it's so it's so frustrating to see it, because it's almost like it's right in front of them. But they don't care. They don't they don't care that they are so hypocritical and wrong. They they just prefer to be on the top and they prefer to make the rules for themselves and make everything work. And yeah, to them, they're having a great time. But I think our government is going to suffer for decades after this entire administration, because they are completely melting away all of the principles and, you know, everything that was used to build the idea of America and freedom, it's just all going away,

Charles Stanton 12:41
yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that those ideals have been, have been very disrespected. I think that, I think what's happened is also that when people, you know, when I was, when I was going to law school. And, you know, I, I was very idealistic. I think I'm still idealistic, but I was, I was very idealistic then. And you know, you'd go into the law library or something, and you see all those books, and you say, Wow, this is, this is something very impressive, that in these books, there's there's knowledge, there's wisdom, there's justice, but history and history, yes, but people, people seem to have forgotten about that, yeah, because they've decided that their own self importance and their own wealth and their own power and all the rest of these things are more important. So that that message, in a lot of ways, has been transmitted to basically, the public. When he gives the speech to the jury in the verdict movie, he connects with them when he says to them, you know, we see all these things going on, and we and we don't, and we don't see justice, but you can see, you can see it in a lot of the things that are going on in our society today, where what's actually happened is that the law has become so disrespected now that even people who believed in the law are saying, well, there isn't any law anymore. We see all these things happening in front of us, you know, and our rights are being, our rights are being, trying to be snuffed out by all what's going on in Washington. I mean, a perfect example, a perfect example of this, as I think you'll agree, is the shutdown. Shutdown is the absolute perfect example, because they're there these people, we are not their servants. They are our servants. He Mr. President, he is our servant. Even the Justices of the Supreme Court are our servants. But it's like Oz, you know where that. Was supposed to be, but that's okay. Let's keep the government shut down for Nourse four weeks, maybe a month, two months. Who cares? And then, and then, the people who truly, I think, bear an enormous responsibility in this whole dilemma, is the Supreme Court. I did. Supreme Court has has catastrophically failed in their duties, and they had a poll. It was an interesting thing last week where they got in touch with 65 either federal district court judges or Federal Appeals judges, to ask them what was their opinion of the one sentence decisions that they've been making to the shadow docket, 47 out of 6547 out of 65 said they thought it was it was it was it was morally and legally wrong. That is not a good number. That's not surprising. It's not surprising, but it's not a good number right, when almost three quarters of the judges right are saying stuff like that, yeah, and my concern is, my concern is that we have some major decisions coming up. We have the decision about the gay marriage. We have the birthright decision. We have a whole bunch of decisions. I cannot imagine what it would be if this is the attack that they took in deciding these cases. Yeah, but I also think, I also think that a lot of their decisions are very short sighted as to capturing what the mood and temperature of the country is.

Blanca Pena 16:49
Yeah, I agree. I don't think they realized how many people are actually against everything. I've seen it where there are so many protests going on, where it's like this nationwide, no kings, yes protests, and it's happening all over the place, because no one's happy. No one's I don't know if you saw but when Christy Nourse took her little goon squad to Chicago, people in the restaurants weren't allowing them to go in to eat or use the restroom like they said, leave, and that's what we need to keep doing. We need as as horrible as these news are and as disappointing as these people are, I think that's, that's what we got. It's, it's our numbers, because that is what we have on our side. And, you know, it could be very it could be a good and a bad thing, right? It could be a bad thing, because there's just too many people to get together, too many people to try and compromise with like. I completely understand that, but that is something that they will never have. They will never have the numbers, because it's always the elite, the top, the like, and that's they're very few, because they are that. I think the more we continue to resist, the less we decide to coward. You know, in the guise of wanting to keep the peace or wanting to let it pass, right? Like no, that is, that is a lie. I It's delusion. Actually, I don't, I don't understand how we can agree that silence is the answer when it never was the answer. It always took a fight to change something. It always took a protest. That always took a no, you know, and like, the easiest one is like, Rosa Parks, right? It's like, it's acts of rebellion like that that change things that that change the direction of how the world works. It has never been silenced. It'll never be silence. And that's just that's not the answer right now. Yeah, so I think, I mean, if there's anything I can say about you know, that can maybe make us feel a little more optimistic, is that people are really upset, people don't like what they're seeing, even people that originally voted for the guy, right? Even they're extremely disappointed. We talked about it last week, about Marjorie Taylor Greene, and how even she started talking, and I even mentioned I was like, I'm not gonna give her too much credit, because she's part of the reason why it's all happening, right?

Charles Stanton 19:18
And continues to talk on different things too. Yeah, which is interesting. Yeah, very interesting.

Blanca Pena 19:23
So I think that that is, you know, something to look forward to. And I think as long as we keep that up, we can make something work for ourselves, because clearly, the people in government aren't going to

Charles Stanton 19:34
do it for us. Yeah, well, I'll say, I'll say two things. I completely agree with what you're saying regarding what the strategy should be, but I don't think the people in Washington have taken into consideration, if things continue on the current course, how this is going to play out. And that play out very badly for almost everybody. Basically what's going to happen is. With the defunding of Obamacare and the defunding of Medicaid, the vast majority of people, I would say the vast majority, more than 50% of the people, are not going to be able to see a doctor. They're not going to be able to afford to see a doctor. So what's going to happen then? Well, then they're going to be going to the ER so the ers are going to be overwhelmed. The hospitals won't be able to handle it. The hospitals are going to start to crumble. People are not going to get, you know, medical care. And then on top of that, on top of that, which we still don't have the numbers yet, and I always think of the woman that was fired from I guess she was the reporter of the employment figures, because she didn't give good numbers. Well, I can only imagine how many people now, with this shutdown have been laid off. All these people are out of work. Yeah, what's going to be with them?

Blanca Pena 20:55
I wish we could cut, you know, Trump's pay and JD bans his pay. Like, why don't they put their names to the side? But they won't

Charles Stanton 21:04
I, you know, I'll say, I'll say this, though too, not withstanding what would deserve criticism the two people that you mentioned deserve. But it's, it's, it's more than that, though it's, it's, it's the people at the top of the food chain. It's the it's they. It was funny because in one of the movies we saw, they were talking about how, you know, it's in the Wall Street movie, he says it's the 1% it's not the 1% anymore. It's maybe the 1/3 or 1/10 or 1/20 of the 1% who basically runs the country. Yeah, it's disgusting. And everybody, you know, everybody's paid off. You know, you have the system in Washington where, you know, they fund all these campaigns. It's like the guy, the guy who's going to run, run again for the governorship of Texas, he's got like, an $85 million war chest already now, you know. And this is, this is a state. This is a state, you know, and you know, which is a conservative state, however, however, there's certain basic things that elected officials should be able to do, yeah, and one of those as one of those things that the elected officials should be able to do more than three and a half years now after the event happened, tell us the truth about what happened in Uvalde and why all those children were killed, and we still don't have a conclusive report on it, more than three years, three and a half years

Blanca Pena 22:34
later, and why he keeps taking vacations when his people need him the most. Well, that's same thing for JD Vance. I saw he had taken, I think, at this point, between eight to 10 vacations since he took office, and it hasn't even been a year since he took office, and that's all taxpayer funds. And really, really frustrating. I like the point you made about, you know, it's not even the the top 1% now it is, you know, even smaller than that. Because I, I was thinking about it, and I was thinking about that saying, like, eat the rich, right? And I feel like, at this point, when we say, eat the rich, we're not even talking about people who are millionaires, like, like, you know, very a million dollars. There's a lot of money. I'm gonna just preface it by putting that out there, right? But it's like at this point we have billionaires. I saw Elon Musk is on track to being the first ever trillionaire by 2027 What do you do with that much money? And how do you how can you live with yourself having that much money, knowing that you can solve multiple world problems and still be rich, mind you like you can solve these problems and your life will stay exactly the same. How can you wake up every single day and choose not to do it each and every day? And that's not just Elon Musk, right? That's that's also Bill Gates, and that's also, you know, the other guy, the Amazon guy and the Facebook guy and all these other people, even even artists, you know, like I it's so, you know, it's so frustrating being told to drink out of paper straws and to limit my water consumption and where I drive. But we have, you know, artists like Taylor Swift taking a private jet everywhere she pleases even 2030, minute flights ruining the environment. It's just, well, it really is that, you know, one it's like the point 00, 1% that is really messing it up for all of

Charles Stanton 24:35
us. But the answer to that is though. The answer to that is though that that's how a certain group of people evolve their whole life. Their whole ethos is accumulation, having all these things. Perfect example is Jeff Bezos, his wife, Mackenzie. She has literally given billions of dollars to charity, billions, 10 billion. 1520, an enormous amount of money. And her husband, her ex husband, was trying to get a permit in Holland so they could change one of the historic bridges so his yacht could go underneath the bridge. But it's no different. It's no different Blanca than in the city that we're in now with the homeless. Yeah, the money that the casinos are taking in is astronomical. They're taking in more money to casinos than they've ever taken about and you can't, you can't find places to put the homeless. There's so much empty space in the city there is, and there's no like motivation I saw the other day when I was coming up here, down from where I live, for police cars arresting a man who was homeless. No, yeah, give me a

Blanca Pena 25:47
break. They're criminalized at the PDS, I literally had to do this bail hearing for a guy that got arrested because he was sleeping on the sidewalk. Police Officer charged him for obstructing a public sidewalk. There was a picture on the police report, and he was lit. He was just sleeping off in the corner, not bothering anyone. There was still room to walk around him. What makes you like if he had somewhere else to sleep, I'm sure he'd be there. You know, if he had a couch, a home, a bed, he would be there. He's not there for fun. Yeah, and oh, it just disgusts me. The the what it takes for someone to look at someone sleeping on a sidewalk and whipping out some handcuffs.

Charles Stanton 26:27
Yeah, but see, see the thing there is though. The thing there is though that the society, in many ways, has become a me society. It's about what I want, right? Everybody else can starve or croak. It doesn't bother me. But what we need to do in our country is people need to move outside of themselves and say, Listen, you know, I see what's going on here. What can I do to try to help, even in a small way, right, even in a small way, but, you know, you don't see. I mean, what do you say about, you know, how a person could go to sleep at night. I don't know. It's a mindset though. Yeah, it's a mindset. It's a mindset of superiority. It's a mindset that says, because a person doesn't have the same skin color that I have, I'm superior. And that's a lot of it too. Yeah, that's a lot of it too. And that's why you have all the stuff that's going on in the country now, a lot of it, yeah, a lot of it, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's a sobering time, yeah, it's a sobering time. It really is. And it's a wake up call, really, it should be a wake up call for for everybody, really, you know, because it's what did Franklin say when he left Constitution Hall, when the man asked him what, what was created in Constitution Hall? And he said, a republic, if we can keep it. And he knew, he knew all those years later, you know. But we have to, we always have to have hope, though, hope is the most important thing, yeah, and we have to, we have to reach out to people, and we have to reach out to people, particularly many times, who are diametrically opposed to the way we are. But we have to do so nevertheless. Yeah, because that's, that's the only way things are going to get done. I agree. You know,

Blanca Pena 28:17
yeah, it's either we choose to fight or we choose to lose, and I refuse to choose to lose. I'd rather, I'd rather lose, but have a fight under my belt and say that I tried, yeah, than just having willingly given up.

Charles Stanton 28:32
So we want to, we want to thank everybody for listening tonight. We hope that we provided some information, maybe some inspiration, and maybe some more hope and and just to let everybody know that we're never alone, as long as long as we're united by the important causes that we need to take, take care of. Thank

Blanca Pena 28:57
you all for listening. We'll see you next week. Good night.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai